As far as kingdom vs. church goes, I can only find the word 'church' used three times by Jesus in the gospels. He used 'kingdom' well over 100 times. Perhaps one of the things that keeps believers from discussing the Kingdom is the mysterious nature of it. The way the kingdom works is counter-intuitive. It pays workers the same no matter how long they work. It makes people do "crazy" things like sell all they have. And it is within us, invisible.

Combine that with the fact that most people associate the word church with something (literally) concrete and easier to understand, and it makes sense that many focus on the church over the Kingdom. But to do that is to miss the boat as far as the joy of walking with God is concerned.

Posted by Ryan on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 at 11:31am

Little Dave,

Scratch my comment referencing the term "kingdom now." After I posted the term I started second guessing myself. I'm glad I did. I did a word search on Wikapedia for "kingdom now." It is NOT what I meant.

Posted by Another Dave on Monday, December 10, 2007 at 9:10pm

Good observations and questions, little Dave. There's so much in the bible concerning the kingdom, and it really IS a tough subject! I should spend more time on it, but I think certain passages are speaking of different aspects of the kingdom, and it's our job to decipher the application of each. Not always easy. But in your post I saw the two main usages of the kingdom and wanted to throw in my two cents.

?Kingdom? actually means the reign of God (check Strong?s # 932), and I?ve been ignoring the word ?kingdom? the last few months and inserting the word ?reign? or ?reign of God,? which ever fits better, as I?ve been reading lately. I?m not exactly sure why, but I?ve enjoyed it! J It seems to have helped me have a little different perspective and it forces me to understand each verse better.

Anyway, my two cents: There is the ?kingdom now? as some call it, and this is the spiritual kingdom, or reign of God, in followers of Christ in the present imperfect world. It also seems to be linked to the reign presently being accomplished by God over the entire universe. God is reigning in and over us.

BUT then there are verses that are not speaking of this aspect of the kingdom (though the two are obviously linked), but are speaking of His literal kingdom that is yet to be fully established. One example would be in Dan.

In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. (Dan. 2:44)

Discerning which is which can be difficult, at times, and understanding the link between the two aspects of the kingdom is a journey that I have not yet mastered. I?ll let you know when I do.

I know this isn't completely what Big Dave was asking, but it's what I thought of after reading your post, Little Dave.

Posted by Another Dave on Sunday, December 9, 2007 at 5:56pm

I jumped into this question believing that I could find some insight by looking at all the passages where Jesus teaches on the church and all those where he teaches on the Kingdom. Perhaps I should have started with the church, because he had much to say about the Kingdom and I was quickly overwhelmed. I am not giving up though!

As to the question of how the Church and the Kingdom differ, my first thoughts on the subject have been that the Church must be a part of the Kingdom . . . some sort of subset. Because it seems that there must be parts of the kingdom that are not part of the Church. Certainly heaven is a part of the Kingdom. So it makes me think that the Church has boundaries within the contest of the Kingdom.

I am wondering what those boundaries look like. I am also wondering what we might miss about the Kingdom if we separate the Church from the Kingdom in our minds, or, if we equate the Church with the Kingdom.

Some interesting observations about the Kingdom from Matthew and first parts of Mark:

It is eternal.
It has good news.
It belongs to the poor in spirit and to those who are persecuted for righteousness.
Men can become the greatest or least within it.
The Kingdom is not present on earth the way it is in heaven.
We can seek it (or not seek it).
Not everyone who calls Jesus Lord, is a part of it (but he who does the will of the Father IS).
It is forcefully advancing.
It has been (is being) prepared for us.
The Kingdom is not divided.
It is hard to enter.
It has secrets.
Jesus talks about it a ton!

Posted by Little Dave on Sunday, December 9, 2007 at 2:49pm

King & Kingdom - what do you think?
Statements from the Indepth podcast:
?Jesus had little to say about church but much to say about the Kingdom.?
?We should become experts in the Kingdom.?
?We find ourselves by losing ourselves.?
Question:
How have you seen the Kingdom growing in and around you?

What do you think?

Posted by Dave Nadler on Thursday, December 6, 2007 at 8:44pm

I was really struck by the straight forwardness of 4:1-6 and then 4:13,14

I think of my friends and family members who are struggling with the idea of Jesus being the only Way the Truth and the Life, and that we can test those spirits who "do not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh"... And that we can plainly know those spirits are not from God. And in vs 13 "By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit."
So in all of John's letters He is pointing out that we can have this assurance of the Truth because of His Spirit who abides in us when we abide in Him. My prayer is that those who continue to listen to those other spirits would see the simplicity of this Truth.

I also have really been enjoying "eating" the word through the deeper meanings that are found in word pictures that were better portrayed in the original Greek and Hebrew languages. Thanks for teaching on that these past weeks Dave. Some cool word studies in these letters!

Posted by Ryan Foster on Saturday, February 2, 2008 at 2:03pm

Jesse,

As I read your post, and as you mentioned one of my favorite verses, I was reminded of how excited I was when I first read the verse that says that we don\'t need anyone to teach us (age 21 or 22?). I\'m sure I was thrilled to read that the Spirit was my teacher, but I think I was even more thrilled to find out that I didn\'t need men to teach me! I must have been a little too rebellious in my early 20\'s and didn\'t think I needed help, or wanted to be so self reliant. It didn\'t take long for me to realize that teachers, and older/wiser men were still very nice to have around even if the Spirit is the ultimate teacher. But I think you\'re smarter than I was back then!

Posted by Dave B on Tuesday, January 29, 2008 at 11:44pm

I really felt like first/second/third John were books of assurances. You don't need anyone to teach you, John says. 1 John is full of "You know"s and "you have heard"s, but it expounds upon them, taking the teaching of the anointing deeper, reminding and reassuring us of who we have become and what we must do.

Posted by Jesse on Tuesday, January 29, 2008 at 9:04pm

Thanks for the discussion last night in 1-2-3 John ? and your commitment to be here for Book by Book on an ongoing basis. It is an important part of my ?whole counsel of God? approach for my own study, and your faithfulness helps me to be faithful.

I also feel that while this style of study is not as easy as me ?teaching? a study, it is effective regarding personal insight. The more comfortable we all are to share what we see (without feeling self-conscious) the time gets better and better. I feel last night?s discussion was very substantive, and I enjoyed it immensely!

Several "take-away/blow me aways" include the idea that God is "greater than our hearts" and the part about "victory & faith". I need this balance to keep me from thinking it is all about me. How can something be so easy and yet so incredibly deep. Sometimes I feel I could drown in God's depth.

Posted by dave nadler on Tuesday, January 29, 2008 at 11:42am

hmmmm....
Chapter 1:21-24. Very cool that we are not dominated over by someone else, but rather fellow workers with our leaders. Certainly they lead, and we follow, but it's not up to the leaders to do all the work, nor is it expected of us to sit back and nod and be passive. I have a picture that Paul is very clearly saying, "hey, jump in here and participate. Come labor with us for your joy and faith-building. Put your money where your mouth is, and here's how and why we are doing these things..."

Posted by Chad Carrington on Thursday, December 20, 2007 at 12:06am